Note: The following quote is attributed to Lord Macaulay. It seems it is normally preceded by "His words were to this effect". The source is cited as "The Awakening Ray, Vol. 4 No. 5, The Gnostic Centre ... Reproduced in Niti issue of April, 2002 at p. 10 - a periodic publication of Bharat Vikas Parishad, Delhi." Thanks to Kovaiputhalvan for bringing it to my notice. I did not change the title of this post for the reason that it is, I believe, still relevant.
"I have traveled across the length and breadth of India... Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation"
(from Lord McCauley's British Parliament speech on February 2,1835) - Please read the comments.
18 comments:
Thanks for your comments and references. I will go through them first!
It looks like that the posted "quote" is a paraphrased version by someone. We could come to that conclusion by referring the two versions of "minute on education" as pointed out by Kovaiputhalvan. But I have these questions:
1. In the same page, it is also doubted that Macaulay had really delivered the speech. Why this question is not answered?
2. The period of this "paraphrased version" is not known. It is atleast not given in the page. Anyone knows?
Given the paraphrased nature of the "quote" (unless shown to be accurate by other sources), We can't really discuss any specific points taken from the posted "quote". Still we can discuss general issues...
"A civilization at its peak is a civilization that has achieved and is continuing to do so"
Many questions are involved here. It might be true. It might not be too. Decline and destruction of a "civilization" is a result of various factors. There are many instances where small good "community" gets destroyed by neighbouring barbaric larger groups.
True. There are also instances where wandering barbaric tribes, small in number, have destroyed peaceful larger tribes!!
I think it is not correct to view the Gurukula System as you wrote. One can always find an example where things are not moving in the right direction. But that should not be the reason for criticising the system as a whole unless we know the system is the only reason for all the things that are wrong. For example, In U.V.Swamithaiyer's (thamizh thaaththaa) autobiography, he vividly describes how he learnt many aspects of Tamil (and Sanskrit)literature from various Gurus, spending months and years with them. The relevance and significance of the system should be weighed against its intrinsic values and impacts, and not to be built upon the few (or many examples). Here we are not talking about the issues of implementation.
This is regarding Gurukulas: It all depends on the teacher, whom to admit as his student s. It is not true that all that is old is really very much bad. For instance in one of the Upanishats there was this story of a person who wanted to learn something and then he meets a lady who in turn advises him to meet a butcher. From this butcher that he finally finds some answer to his questions.
So, it depends on the practitioner how the things are practised. There were bad people who did in bad ways.
The stories from old books like Mahabharata should not be taken in isolation; they were not meant to teach minutest details rather the FINAL message!
You see, Drona paid for his folly in the end??
It is the society that is in general bad and one should note that lifestyles of people were not forced/regulated by single book. This gives the freedom to interpret.
Then the society needs 'social reformers' who came up from time to time but their works are forgotten and only their names remembered.
BTW, is there anything to learn other than Philosophy and Vedas??:-))
People perhaps did not find need to learn how to break an atom or a nucleus. Of couse it is not necessary that one needs to own every discovery/invention.
Finally, I would like to stress that I dont mean to stir up Shencottah or Kovaiputhalavan. Dont like to play with Volcanoes.
How come our Gurukulas never dealt with anything other than religious philosophy and literature
Gurukula System encompasses all. If one wants to learn arts, medicine, mathematics, literature, philospohy, etc., one has to find a particular Guru. Wanting momentarily to learn something is different from the "passion" that pushes humans to initiate steps to quench that all-consuming fire. A Guru might want to test student's attitude, aptitude, or its capability. There is nothing wrong in it as such. There are references available regarding the good characteristics of students and teachers. For instances, there are references in Nannul.
I remember AL Bhasam's "The wonder that was India" has something on Gurukulas that teach other than Philosophy and Literature. I will try to dig it out.
Moreover, we don't have reliable and authentic sources to name any specific Gurukulas that might have existed. We can only infer certain things. People have also learnt other things in Gurukula system, but not from the same Guru perhaps.
Few relatively modern examples:
Music: KVN was with Ariyakudi
Sculpture and Architecture: Student are still with Shri. Ganapathi Stapathi to learn temple architecture.
Society needs all kinds of knowledge. Which is the most fundamental? Most vital? What to impart to the next generation? The answers to these questions determine the type of educational system that society follows. Ancient India considered philosophy (love for wisdom, Truth) as the most precious thing. So everything in Ancient Indian culture revolves around philosophy, finding absolute Truth, etc.
One can ask, what went wrong if everything was so nice?
Here comes the interaction of authority and society. In the modern context, one can translate this into why certain areas of science are funded heavily? The answer is simple. Because the Government wants it that way. But why? Maybe the person-in-charge has his own interests and opinions. Similarly, why certain areas are not given enough importance and why some people are not neglected are related to the issues that involve authority and the people. It does not say anything about the intrinsic worth of Gurukula System.
Why did our "later" (still deep in the past from now) Gurukulas neglect Western science when it was developed?
Was this the beginning of the decline? - Neglecting the knowledge from outside and thinking what we have is the only great thing. Maybe!!
Just a quote for us to think:
"The old institution of living with the Guru and such systems of imparting education are needed. What we want are Western science coupled with Vedanta,and Shraddhâ and also faith in oneself."
-Swami Vivekananda
Recap:
1. Gurukula System of Education, in itself, is not bad.
2. Discrimination is detrimental to progress.
3. The quality of Gurukula Sytem depends naturally on the Guru-in-charge. Gurukula system does not allow a Guru-in-chief who handles all affairs of many other Gurukulas! If we would like to introduce Gurukula system now, we first have to address many complex issues; complex due to the mammoth number of students and the lack of dedicated teachers in large numbers.
4. One should not close oneself from learning from others/outside sources. At the same time, one should discard things that are native just because they belong to the past and do not seemingly fit in the world view we hold now.
Please add other points to these, if any, or correct if anything is not a desirable one.
Coming back to the latest issue -
Look at Ayurveda - someone took pains to carry out research (good or bad, I do not know), and documented.....Think about it - Ayurveda cannot be neglected, at the same time it has to be evaluated as well!
Good point. Not only Ayurveda but other aspects like meticulous observation of many herbs in Siddha literature, Physiological details in Tantric Yoga literature, and the subtle Charaterization of mind and its behavior in many religious and philosophical literature, should be studied using the modern scientific methodology wherever it is applicable.
Question:
Can any Government initiate such things in the present political situation or atleast give funds to people who want to do?
The situation where even the history of India is again and again rewritten by the Government-in-power. Looks like when we choose a government we also choose the history of India. How many countries have given this power of choosing their own history to their citizens? :-)
If modern history is treated like this, do think of what will happen to things that are very old and ancient.
Errata:
1.
Please read At the same time, one should discard things that are native just because they belong to the past and do not seemingly fit in the world view we hold now.
as At the same time, one should not discard things that are native just because they belong to the past and do not seemingly fit in the world view we hold now.
2.
Do make Charaterization of mind and its behavior as Characterization of mind and its behavior
It was interesting to read the post and more than that the comments between Kovai and Shencottah...
I have one thing to add which I find not so good with Gurukula system. My point is based on an assumption and the assumption is based on what I have read and seen and correct e if i am wrong.
Assumption:
- Students start in a Gurukula system early in their age (5 -10 years)...
- Once you are in Gurukula system the possibilities of learning from outside is not as much, you are devoted to a Guru and possibly stay with him and learn things.
My Point:
How will it be possible for a kid to decide what he wants to study at an early age? So are we making warriors out of natural poets? Carepenters out of philosophers?
Other than this Gurukula system is good from my point of view. The best case would be expose various things to students at an early age and make them discover their passion in things they want to pursue.
Note: I don't know what happened during the previous posting. It did not come out completely. Hence I have removed the old post, and am now posting it again.
Once you are in Gurukula system the possibilities of learning from outside is not as much, you are devoted to a Guru and possibly stay with him and learn things
Yes. Once you go to a Guru (or once a Guru chooses you as His student), one has to learn what that Guru teaches. Becoming the shisya of Adi Shankaracharya means the student is going to understand Advaita. Becoming the shisya of Tyagaraja Swamigal means the student is going to sing songs on Lord Rama most of the time. Thamizh ThAththA U.V.Swaminathaiyar learnt different aspects of Tamil literature from different Gurus by staying with them a year or two.
I understand that the apprehension behind the question is related to the first assumption.
How will it be possible for a kid to decide what he wants to study at an early age?
It is not possible. And more importantly, it may not be desirable to give that choice to kids at an age of five. How do we then avoid "poets becoming warriors" and "philosphers becoming carpenters"? That's where the responsibility of parents and Gurus comes in. Parents and Gurus cannot pass their responsibility to the system and relax thinking that things will go rightly and smoothly. This is very much applicable even now. Most of the wrong things in our present educational system can be traced to the laziness and a lack of vision on the part of parents and teachers.
I agree that this issue has many arguments and counter-arguments. Hence, what is needed is a sensitive understanding of the role of parents, teachers, and their impact on young minds during the formative periods.
I would like to suggest these books:
Bertrand Russell on Education
J.Krishnamurti on Education
Vivekananda on Education
I am sure there are many psychological studies available to support one theory or the other. Finally, the most important thing is what do the parents and the teachers want their children and students to be? Equally important is the question what does the students want?
It all depends on one's passion. If parents and teachers passionately want a good educational system, they will try to find a way out. If a student is passionate about something, he or she will definitely find a way out irrespective of the pain and hardships they might encounter during their journey. By the way, the etymon of the word "passion" is "suffering/to suffer". It is the responsibility of the parents and others to make that journey as smooth as possible.
Shencottah,
I accept your point on who is taking the responsibility of the child...I have to admit that the current system in itself does not support such a concept pursuing your passion...Maybe it is because of collectivistic culture we have or because of parent's apprehension in a "safe" profession...such being the case from my personal experience I could not decide even after 4 years of bachelor's degree what I wanted to do..it took several years after that to find a field which I really enjoy...Such being the case of most of us (i can say with confidence as most here cause I know a lot of people who dont know what they want)...there is nothing wrong with not giving an option at a very young age...Ofcourse if a student goes even at a age of 6 or 8 the guru will be in a position to see if he will be a fit..so it is gonna be a WIN-WIN situation for everyone....
To quote such a person in real life...J. Krishnamurthi was "adopted" (couldn t find a better word here) by the theosophical society by Annie Besant forseeing a great philosopher...and we all know the result and the history speaks for itself..i need nt say more about it...
Shencottah an excellent insight from you in this regards !
The choice of JK by Theosophical Society was due to many reasons, and is not directly related to the identification of students' talents by teachers.
Kovaiputhalvan,
I think Phoenix is also feeling the same thing - 6 or 8 is too young for a kid to know what he wants
We will have to wait till he posts again..
Yes I still feel that it is too early for a kid to decide, but again 'most' people can't decide what they even after they graduate...so it is as good as not having a choice....
Kovai
Einstein was an exception..he was a patent clerk yet he worked on Physics and produced awesome results....
Even in my example JK was an exceptions...I think we should not talk about exceptiosn and talk about normal people like me...
Only three comments, not connected directly with the topic under discussion.
1. First a good news: I heard from a wiseman that there are plans to start schools for parents.
2. Second, a comment: In India you do find that the country supports research, without asking anything in return (various PhD scholarships given by UGC, CSIR is an evidence), on any topic.
3. I have a question: I heard that Einstein's wife used to share the working table (she herself being a scientist) at home in Switzerland. Any comment on her contribution in his work if it is recorded by the historians?
Thanks a lot.
J,
1. That's really a great news. I hope the idea of "schools for the parents" will get support from all quarters - parents and educators. Many issues would come up about the modalities of such schools. I believe that our ignorance of not knowing how to run such schools should not cast doubts on the idea itself. I just hope the person from whom you heard this idea would be able to start such a school, or atleast help others to initiate such steps. Insha-Allah.
2. True. The Government of India supports research through UGC/CSIR funding. I believe the areas funded are standard ones, and not the type of investigation Kovaiputhalvan suggests. Please share with this blog if you come to know of any such fundings and research. Thanks in advance.
3. I don't know. We will wait till Kovaiputhalvan posts.
Post a Comment